Things that matter

Some good points there, Lawrence. But, to properly understand why lists don't work, we should first define a proper frame and a definition for "work" in the context.

The frame: self-improvement blogs and generally blogs that want to teach people.
The meaning of "work," in the context: if a blog teaches, then lists should help the process of education, thus you should learn.

Now, education is practical neuroscience. We can't ignore the cold hard reality that science presents us. And what it says about lists is that they are not efficient learning tools. That is regardless of the teacher's skill.

After a short look at the 4 points you present, one can easily come to the conclusion that they're in a slight contradiction - except point 4, that is neutral. The idea that the 4 points encourage is that lists *do* work, but they work for the writer (presentation), not for the reader (learning).

Number 1 states that lists don't have associations and aren't ideal for learning. Number 2 states that lists "work" (i.e., people learn from them).

I agree that lists are tools, but there are all kids of tools. The issue here is that lists are not learning tools, but writing tools - and the two are very different. Lists are tools, but they're generally misused, especially by bloggers.

Here's a simple analogy: pencils and hammers are tools, neutral tools, but they aren't good at doing one anothers work. You can't be effective at writing with a hammer nor at hitting nails with a pencil.

The list of 100 you present is a useful resource, but we must be realistic and realize that no-one will learn it inside out... :) However, that was not its purpose.

When you have a list-written article that tries to educate people (and get them to remember what they read), there is something very wrong in the equation. Like in the pencil and hammer analogy, lists are simply the wrong tool.

Hope this makes sense. :)

PS: From a grammatical perspective, 99% of the lists I've read are incorrectly written.

Hi Armannd and all,

this is really a relevant and interesting discussion. I have the same dilemma about lists:

1. I agree with you that list doesn't have association and isn't ideal for learning.

2. I disagree that list don't work. They do work in certain context (see pt. 3 and 4)

3. Whether lists or paragraphs, they are writing tools to present an idea/facts. Tools by themselves are neutral, it's the skills of the craftsmen who can masterfully use these tools that matters.

4. List can be used as references like what we have in books' reference section or biographies, example http://lawrencecheok.com/127/100-improve-career...
(yes, I guilty of using list, but in this case, a list is more relevant.)

A post with simply list as facts isn't very useful. I believe for best learning effect, short paragraphs mixed with list of points are best:

1. The paragraphs gives the explanations and provides the context.
2. The lists provides the facts and points.

Exactly like what I am doing here in this comment. This is my preferred way of using lists. Just a post with lists alone is overly abused (I do agree). On the other hand, I also have trouble with long post of paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs after paragraphs... Just be aware of your own reactions when you read others' chunky blog post.

I hope you see the point. Ultimately, it's back to point 3 above; list or not, it's the skill of the blogger that matters.

My 2 cents worth...

The idea to rewrite this article in a list format is funny indeed! :)

The problem with "giving readers what they want" reminds me of the real estate world. Everyone there talks about giving people what they want, but no-one really wants that... they want people to want what they want them to want.
In the UK, they say houses are build in an old architecture because that's what people want. A complete falsity... long story here, the moral of it being that "giving people what they want" doesn't mean what it seems.

In the same unfortunate fashion, the thirst for money & power & fame (on the internet) overcomes the desire to be genuinely helpful. When you see people earning thousands, tens of thousands and millions of dollars, you're naturally inclined to try and emulate them (and consequently their methods and philosophies).

Back to lists, the resource reference lists are definitely extremely useful! Those kinds of lists generally have a high value. But a "how to be rich in 10 steps" isn't serving any other purpose than making the author known - or something close to it.

I fear that lists are taking over the internet. Not because they are useful for learning, but because they are popular and entertaining reading.

I guess I am feeding the problem, but when I write a guest post for Lifehack.org or DumbLittleMan.com I tend to include at least a bit of list format. I know too well that I will have the readers attention for only a matter of seconds at these big sites. I try to provide them exactly what they want as fast as I can. What they want is lists.

Of course you are totally correct when you say lists are mostly useless for knowledge retention. Knowledge retention is way down the priority list for most Life hack type readers. They are looking for (and respond best) to "Magic secrets" packaged in 2 line chunks. They will take little with them but somehow swallowing a quick succession of list items seems more satisfying than thoroughly digesting one valuable concept.

I have no idea what the solution is, but I will say that there is type of list that I will actively look for. That is a resource reference list. Something like "100 books on grape growing" for example would be more likely to make it into my favourites than a conventional article that includes the same information. I have no need to remember anything on the list because I will keep it until I have finished with it.

Maybe you should re-write this article in List format. "10 reasons why lists don't work" and see if you can make it big on Digg. At least I think that would be funny.

ZHereford, I didn't say that lists don't provide information in a concise format! They do that, and they do it very well! But that's pretty much all they do in the area of self-improvement. :)

It's true that we're all different, but at the same time it is also true that we're all the same in some aspects. One of those aspects being that all of us are storytelling junkies. Tell me a story and I'll remember it in detail, tell me a pure fact and I'll forget it in 10 minutes.

Our brains seek novelty, they crave for stories to integrate that novelty. When that craving is fulfilled, the brain embraces the novel information.

The neural system gets tired very rapidly when dealing with facts.


An excerpt from a page linked to in the post:

"Learning requires attention. And attention is mediated by specific parts of the brain. Yet, neural systems fatigue quickly, actually within minutes. With three to five minutes of sustained activity, neurons become "less responsive"; they need a rest (not unlike your muscles when you lift weights). They can recover within minutes too, but when they are stimulated in a sustained way, they just are not as efficient. Think about the piano and the organ; if you put your finger on the organ key and hold it down it will keep making noise, but the piano key makes one short note, and keeping your finger there produces no more sound. Neurons are like pianos, not organs. They respond to patterned and repetitive, rather than to sustained, continuous stimulation."

Some sort of narration, even if annoying when done poorly, is essential if one is to assimilate presented ideas.

Oh, and I have never *studied* any list-posts that I have read. I have simply read them and then I moved on... maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, but I believe that everyone does the same. And knowing that reading is the least effective way of learning, combined with the fact that reading lists (not studying them closely) doesn't encourage natural connections, gets you to my conclusion. :)

One important note that I've also made in the post is that some subjects work better than others when written in lists. For example, I could *never* be engaged in a story that is written as a factual list of events... On the other hand, I could probably learn physics more easily if I make a list of the most important formulas. The self-improvement topic is one that is factual at its core, but must be presented as a story.

Hope this clears some fog. :)

Hey Armannd,

I have to disagree with you here. While lists may or may not help you associate, they do provide information in a concise format.

I happen to be one of those people (maybe rare, I don't know) that learns better in point form because I make my own associations. In fact when I used to study for my exams in university, I would list what is most relevant and worthy of studying.

I also prefer when the writer gets right to the point. I don't want to weed through a bunch of filler information.

To each his/her own I guess!

John, I really like the way you put it: "spinning your wheels." It's spot on!

We humans have a natural hunger for stories, for organic flows of information. And lists don't have a flow, they don't have a "natural" feel.

I've read a lot of fairy-tales when I was little and I still remember them! More recently, I've read a lot of list articles, but I don't remember anything about them... :)

Hi Andrea, it's good to hear that you don't like lists! If only more fellow bloggers would think the same. :) Lately I've been looking for "errors in blogging" around the blogosphere, and this is one of the most usual ones. A lot of good ideas are wasted with lists.

Maybe that will change, at least a little, from now on.

Glad that this resonated with you! Plus one on the good side. :)

Lists are easy to encapsulate chunks of information, but as you say, they aren't easily absorbed. Better to write a story, or give examples.

One thing that I have found when tempted to write a list is to space it out and re-organize it into a natural progression so it is absorbed better. The whole point is to communicate, and if you aren't getting ideas across, you are just spinning your wheels.

Thank you, Armannd, from releasing me from "the list." I hate making lists when I write, but I think it's a habit I've developed from reading lots and lots of articles with lists in them. And you're right, it is a lot easier for the writer. I still have never liked it.

Great article that definitely inspired me!
Blessings,
Andrea